Car audio sq setup

Boom boom boom!
omllenado
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Car audio sq setup

Postby omllenado » Sat Dec 31, 2005 12:36 pm

Anybody into car audio SQ setup?,... I have been adjusting my settings on the Hu and I'm thinking of bridging my amps to 100WX2 at 4ohms I just don't know how much a big or little diferrence it would sound from .08thd to .3thd or should I just get a more powerfull amp around 150Wrms. I also need help on tuning for SQ the HU and a few pointers.

Front Components are Focals 165K2P
rears stock but faded to front for a good staging
Hu- DEH-3500 50WX4
subwoofer- single 12" kicker comp on a ported box
amp for the sub- RF200M 100Wrms@4ohms
4chanel amp alpine mrv-f240 40WX4 at 4ohms

I know the subwoofer and the ported box is not for SQ but I'm planning on replacing the sub or maybe just get a sealed box.

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Postby omllenado » Sat Dec 31, 2005 6:38 pm

I read someone saying that ported boxes are not for SQ but after spending a couple of minutes changing the settings on the HU I think I finally tuned it not to sound to boomy with just enough bass to compliment the fronts,

Thanks ZOSO, so you think I should dynamat the front doors first?, is it the whole door and around the baffles and just the front doors?.

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Postby omllenado » Fri Jan 13, 2006 6:48 pm

I got tired of the ghetto boom of the kicker comp on a bandpass so I bought an Image dynamics IDQ12DVC on a sealed box and ran it at 200W 2ohms with the RF200... The sound quality is incredible.

http://www.imagedynamicsusa.com/public_release/

Here are some pictures.

I'll be running this for a few weeks then I'll get a 12" IDMAX and hook up the DEI1100D.

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Sorry about the amp install, I'll be cleaning her up soon.
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omllenado
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Postby omllenado » Sat Jan 14, 2006 9:47 am

yeah thanks,... now I'm hooked.

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Postby Taro » Sat Jan 14, 2006 11:19 am

looking good!! :thumb:

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Postby SkunkWerks » Sat Jan 14, 2006 4:52 pm

As much as people don't think that you need a lot of wattage for a SQ setup, the more wattage you have the cleaner the sound you will get at higher sound pressure levels.

A question I have for you all: to increase the volume level one click so that the stereo system is noticeably louder, how much wattage did you have to increase from the amplifiers to do this?

Subwoofers: most subs are designed either around a sealed or ported box. You can make a sub designed to fit in a sealed box work okay in a ported box and vice-versa, but a sub designed for a sealed box will sound best in a sealed box.

Ported boxes are much more difficult to size correctly: the volume of the box and the port size/shape/positioning are critical and if one is off by a little the sub will sound like crap. OTOH, you can miss the size of a sealed box by a bit and the thing still sounds good. Hit it on the head and it sounds phenominal. You can make an oversized sealed box for a given woofer, listen to it, decrease the volume a little bit at a time until it sounds the way you want then either leave it or make a new box with the volume you have found works for you. To decrease the volume you place chunks of 2X4 or 4X4 inside the box to take up volume.
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Postby SkunkWerks » Sun Jan 15, 2006 5:13 pm

That's good. You can only discern 3db difference and you double the wattage to get that.

Yeah, I guess I did make it sound like the box and port size are absolutely critical. My point was that the size of the port and volume of the box are much more important on a ported box are more critical than the volume of a sealed box.

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Postby omllenado » Mon Jan 16, 2006 11:11 am

I'm new to this car audio stuff so for example you guys are saying I can increase the loudness of my single 12" setup by getting another 12"?. I'm deciding betweem getting another 12" and run them parallel 4ohms getting 425Wrms instead of a single 12 on 800Wrms 2ohms but the gain setting will be significantly adjusted low.
Or get a single idmax 1000Wrms and run 800W with the directed1100D.

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Postby omllenado » Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:11 am

And yet another audio upgrade....

DEI 1100D 1100W@1ohms, 800Ws@2ohms, 425W@4ohms

hooked-up an old Directed 1100D class D subwoofer amplifier and after playing a couple of minutes it started to smoke, it's now an expensive paper weight. Anyone know of a good electronics repair shop for amps?.

Replacement this afternoon.
Pioneer Premier™ Competition SPL Digital Mono Amplifier with 2000 Watts Max. Power
Continuous Power (4 ohm) 500 Watts x 1
Continuous Power (2 ohm) 1000 Watts x 1
Continuous Power (1ohm) 1100W x1
and 2 JL audio 10W6v2 at 400Wrms 800Wmax

This should rattle my brain and knock off my teeth.

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Picked up a hauler too... 94 tacoma 4x4 manual 5 speed vze6

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Postby omllenado » Sat Jan 28, 2006 5:49 pm

well yeah but I'm thinking about selling them now that I have another money pit off roader.

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Postby ssssy » Fri Feb 24, 2006 11:07 pm

If you want SQ you want lots of 6-8 inch woofers, not 10-12 inch woofers. The larger the woofer the more air resistance hence the slower the response. Any speaker that will play smooth down to 60-80hz by itself when put into an array of 6 or more in a sealed box will blow your mind. You will get usable volume down to 30hz but more importantly you will have lightning fast super accurate bass from 40-110hz where you really need it.

Another good sq setup in MKIV VWs is a 10 in the trunk and a pair of focal 5ws or other similar small dedicated subs in the rear doors.

Enjoy

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Postby omllenado » Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:27 am

Thanks,
so the focals 5w midbass driver and 10" sub in the back for a more punchy bass?. I sold my JL 10W6 coz although they sounded good and fast it seems to be missing something. I already have the focals 165k2p in front, do you think I could benefit from an additional driver in the kick panel?.

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Postby omllenado » Sat Feb 25, 2006 7:29 pm

I'm looking for another 12IDQ and I would probably build a ported box just to try it out... My focals sound so in your face pop, too trebly but I do like it. I'm thinking of building mdf rings for the 6.5" driver and enclose the back with fiber, dynamat . kickpanels and bigger driver probably latter.

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Postby ssssy » Mon Feb 27, 2006 7:48 pm

zoso wrote:While a slew of 8's can sound amazing, so can a 15. Size of a woofer does not automatically make is fast, slow or anything else. Air resistance, sheesh, where you getting gthat kind of info?

Keep the ID12, it's a great SQ woofer. You really want to be able to get mid bass up front though, so don't skimp on a 6.5 or 6.5 component set.


um yeah that would be simple physics. the larger the surface area of an object moving through a liquid (air is a liquid bye the way) the more force is required to propel it and the more resistance it incurs. Just stick your hand out the window.

There are precious few 15 inch woofers that can do more than reverberate a 45hz wave through car (there are a couple Adire models that sound very good). They can cause greater amounts of air pressure fluctuation due to greater surface area moving more air (there that air comes in again) but generally are useless for an sq setup due to the fact that they are hard to control, almost never maintain a linear track, and rapidly break up and roll off at very low frequencies.

Not to mention that you get a greater effective surface area by using multiple small drivers than one or two large ones without suffering the problems of trying to propel a serving platter through free space. The surface area of one 15" sub is 176.71 inches, a 6" speaker is 28.27 and a 8" speaker is 50.26. So with only 6, 6" speakers or 4, 8" speakers you can move more air with much less power and infinitely better response, dampening, frequency characteristics etc.

ID12s are very good sounding woofers and among very few subs that can be run in an open baffle configuration (IE no box at all). Very clean in a sealed box and much better than most in a ported box. The only thing about a ported is that you will need pretty beefy mids as you will want to cross it over around 70hz.

Focal makes a great speaker but they have poor off axis response hence the "in your face" presentation when mounted in a door. You are hearing little more than your tweeters and the mids reflected back off the other door. If you put them in kicks or build baffles to angle them towards you a bit they will sound much better.

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Postby quality_sound » Wed Mar 15, 2006 11:22 pm

ssssy wrote:um yeah that would be simple physics. the larger the surface area of an object moving through a liquid (air is a liquid bye the way) the more force is required to propel it and the more resistance it incurs. Just stick your hand out the window.


I know this is old but I can't look at something this wrong and NOT repsond. Woofer "speed" has NOTHING to do with sub. The illusion of speed, and volume for that matter, comes from the midbass drivers. We're also dealing with a CLOSED environment. Subs don't do anything in a car but pressurize and depressurize the cabin, you don't even hear them because the sound waves is longer than the car. In something like a Mk3 or 4 hatchback the cuttoff where this starts can be at almost 200Hz. Basic physics indeed.

There are precious few 15 inch woofers that can do more than reverberate a 45hz wave through car (there are a couple Adire models that sound very good). They can cause greater amounts of air pressure fluctuation due to greater surface area moving more air (there that air comes in again) but generally are useless for an sq setup due to the fact that they are hard to control, almost never maintain a linear track, and rapidly break up and roll off at very low frequencies.


Actually large subs break up at HIGH frequencies and EVERY car sub on the market is DESIGNED to roll off on the low end or you'd NEVER be able to maintain something resembling a decent bottom end, there'd be too much bass if the sub was flat to 20Hz in open air.

Not to mention that you get a greater effective surface area by using multiple small drivers than one or two large ones without suffering the problems of trying to propel a serving platter through free space. The surface area of one 15" sub is 176.71 inches, a 6" speaker is 28.27 and a 8" speaker is 50.26. So with only 6, 6" speakers or 4, 8" speakers you can move more air with much less power and infinitely better response, dampening, frequency characteristics etc.


It's not about cone area it's about total air VOLUME moved by the subs. Who cares if you have a ton of cone area if the speaker only moves 7mm?

ID12s are very good sounding woofers and among very few subs that can be run in an open baffle configuration (IE no box at all). Very clean in a sealed box and much better than most in a ported box. The only thing about a ported is that you will need pretty beefy mids as you will want to cross it over around 70hz.


You'd want to cross it over around there no matter the box type.

Focal makes a great speaker but they have poor off axis response hence the "in your face" presentation when mounted in a door. You are hearing little more than your tweeters and the mids reflected back off the other door. If you put them in kicks or build baffles to angle them towards you a bit they will sound much better.


Actually Focals have a tendency to sound boxy and hollow in kicks because they don't have enough free space around them. Focal midbasses are much better in door mountind unless you have a lot of space behind them. What you'r probably hearing is a phase problem between the mids. And I mean acoustically, not electrically. Wiring all the positives and negatives to the "proper" terminals does NOT mean the system is in phase.
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Postby ssssy » Wed Mar 29, 2006 10:49 pm

you have no idea what you are talking about

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Postby Turtle-Dude » Thu Mar 30, 2006 12:13 am

LOL..I KNOW the right answer but I suggest you guys look it up rather than slam each other. Prove yourselves right with quotes from articles or find out you may have been wrong and admit it. Trust me, it's a helluva lot more fun than arguing.
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Postby quality_sound » Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:07 am

Turtle-Dude wrote:LOL..I KNOW the right answer but I suggest you guys look it up rather than slam each other. Prove yourselves right with quotes from articles or find out you may have been wrong and admit it. Trust me, it's a helluva lot more fun than arguing.



Well, it'll be hard for me to quote what someone else thinks since my knowledge comes from actual use of the product and many other over the last 16-ish years on both the consumer and retail sides. I don't place much stock in "articles" since the authors are almost always paid to give a glossy review of a product. I have read some pretty good white papers from AS2K but those don't really apply here.
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Postby Turtle-Dude » Thu Mar 30, 2006 8:43 am

quality_sound wrote:Well, it'll be hard for me to quote what someone else thinks since my knowledge comes from actual use of the product and many other over the last 16-ish years on both the consumer and retail sides. I don't place much stock in "articles" since the authors are almost always paid to give a glossy review of a product. I have read some pretty good white papers from AS2K but those don't really apply here.


You were supposed to just laugh and stop arguing...lol

At one point in time or another AS2K have covered everything. I don't think there is a single person that can dispute the research they've done. They USED to be here in Stockton!!! I haven't looked them up in a looong time. I also agree, screw product reviews. Need real world information.
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Postby quality_sound » Thu Mar 30, 2006 10:43 pm

Turtle-Dude wrote:You were supposed to just laugh and stop arguing...lol

At one point in time or another AS2K have covered everything. I don't think there is a single person that can dispute the research they've done. They USED to be here in Stockton!!! I haven't looked them up in a looong time. I also agree, screw product reviews. Need real world information.



I think Navone Engineering is still in Stockton. Zapco is and Arc is pretty much in Stockton too.
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Postby ssssy » Fri Mar 31, 2006 1:20 am

Turtle-Dude wrote:LOL..I KNOW the right answer but I suggest you guys look it up rather than slam each other. Prove yourselves right with quotes from articles or find out you may have been wrong and admit it. Trust me, it's a helluva lot more fun than arguing.


I know the answer as well I already posted it

I'm not arguing, it is not worth arguing with someone who thinks you can't hear a subwoofer in a car and that increasing cone area doesn't make a system louder or hit harder

every time you double cone area you double the audible volume and physical volume of air moved in any given system

you can hear a sound wave at any point in the cycle of the wave, it is irrelevant how large the car is. distance vs wavelength will modulate volume but not eliminate it. To test this theory feel free to play a 30hz wave at full volume and put your ear next to your sub. Give me a call when your ears stop ringing from the imaginary loud noises. Maybe if you tell yourself that you are too close and can't hear it you won't go deaf. :OWNED:

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Postby quality_sound » Fri Mar 31, 2006 7:32 am

ssssy wrote:I know the answer as well I already posted it

I'm not arguing, it is not worth arguing with someone who thinks you can't hear a subwoofer in a car


Under the freq. where the wave is longer than the longest dimension of that particular car, you can't. It's basic physics.

and that increasing cone area doesn't make a system louder or hit harder


No one's arguing this.

every time you double cone area you double the audible volume and physical volume of air moved in any given system


I don't think anyone disagrees with you here either.

you can hear a sound wave at any point in the cycle of the wave, it is irrelevant how large the car is.


Wrong. The size of the car ahs EVERYTHING to do with being able to hear it. Again, under the freq. where the wave is longer than the longest dimension of that particular car you're pressurizing and depressurizing the car. The MIDBASS in a system (whether played through the midbasses or the subs) is what gives the impression of woofer "speed", and volume.

distance vs wavelength will modulate volume but not eliminate it. To test this theory feel free to play a 30hz wave at full volume and put your ear next to your sub.


I have. You can do it with a 5Hz tone if you really want to try it too. Same thing. But remember, in a sound room, your living room, or whatever, you're not in the same environment as a car so the same rules don't apply.

Give me a call when your ears stop ringing from the imaginary loud noises. Maybe if you tell yourself that you are too close and can't hear it you won't go deaf. :OWNED:


Not really a good example since wearing ear plugs for extended periods will cause your ears to ring too. BTW, it's been proven that loud MIDRANGE causes hearing loss, not loud bass. Now whos' :OWNED:?
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Postby ssssy » Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:40 pm

you can't hear a 5hz tone so playing a 5hz tone as loud as you can will do nothing to test this theory. It will damage your ears though and can cause other internal ailments.

you need to go study your physics again, you only need to be a quarter wave length away to hear a given tone at near full gain. Not to mention that sound waves reflect of of things until they dissipate.

All speaker measurements are taken at 1 foot, by your definition of physics you would only be able to measure a speakers response higher than 1100hz and you would be unable to hear anything under 500hz in a car. Since my voice is in the 500hz range and people don't seem to have a problem hearing me when they are closer to me than 5 feet I don't think your theory is sound.

This is one of the most ridiculous internet propagated rumors i have ever heard and is based on nothing but horrible misunderstandings of fluid dynamics and how they relate to the audio environment.

Speaker size and throw are directly responsible for the perception of speed, accuracy and attack in bass notes. The further the speaker has to travel to achieve the desired volume the longer it takes for that speaker to get back to the same point in its throw to reproduce sound. The human ear can detect nanosecond differences in phase, which is what slow, sloppy speakers lack, phase continuity. The slow and or sloppy travel of a woofer causes phase distortion in accompanying notes making them sound off and unrealistic.

Once again, you have no idea what you are talking about, do not give other people advice, everything you have said is wrong.

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Postby ssssy » Fri Mar 31, 2006 8:41 pm

and by the way, loud anything causes hearing loss :OWNED:

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Postby quality_sound » Fri Mar 31, 2006 10:30 pm

ssssy wrote:and by the way, loud anything causes hearing loss :OWNED:




So why don't people go deaf during earthquakes? :aww:
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